The new Israeli ideas regarding greater Jordanian involvement in running the territories, were elaborated on by Mr. Peres. A new Jordanian-Palestinian framework should be created that could lead to negotiations with Israel. Israel was telling the residents of the areas to rethink their future and trust King Hussein instead of the runaround given to them by Arafat. In the following interview, Mr. Peres also discussed Israel-Egypt relations and the significance of the release of Anatoly Shcharansky. Excerpts:
Q: Since a large part of the plan to expand local powers in the territories depends on Jordanian agreement, have there been contacts with the Jordanians on this subject?
A: You are asking me an information question and I will reply with a conceptual question. We strive to coordinate things as much as we can with Jordan. We are not acting against Jordan, we remember very well that all the residents of Judea and Samaria are Jordanian citizens, there are Jordanian Parliament members [who live in the territories], there is the Jordanian dinar, Jordanian law - and we do not act in opposition to Jordan, and if possible [we act] with Jordan. But I will not reply to the concrete question, I am speaking of the fundamental approach.
Q: What do you expect from the Palestinian leadership in the territories today in the wake of the failure of the Hussein-Arafat talks?
A: To take their fate in their hands. If they abandon their fate to someone else, not one will look after them. There were three outlooks regarding the residents of the territories. One outlook was evidently that of Jordan: They hoped that the PLO leadership would change, today the PLO leadership is made up chiefly of persons who did not come from the territories, but who came from what is today called Israel within the green line - from Jaffa, from Acre - there were hardly any people there from Nablus, from Jenin, from Hebron, from Jericho, and so forth. A few residents of the territories were in fact moved into the PLO leadership, but unfortunately Kawassmeh was murdered, Milhem did not seize a central place, and the "veteran" PLO group remained. I think the Jordanians thought that if residents from the territories entered the PLO leadership, they would also see more to the territories, because the present PLO leadership wants to destroy the State of Israel more than it wants to find a solution to the problem of the territories.
A second view is that of Arafat, apparently. He wants to preserve the integrity and leadership of the organization, and to create the impression that he has a solution. He has none. He doesn't know what to do, believe me. He simply doesn't know. He doesn't know, he kills, his people are killed. Violence, violence, violence. Violence without a program. The program itself is violence.
There is a third view, that of Israel, which states. Please, you, the residents of the territories - there are about 800,000 in Judea and Samaria, about 560,000 in Gaza let us seek a solution. We are ready to talk with you - with you as well. If we want to do so on your own, fine; if you want to do so within a Jordanian-Palestinian framework, fine. But there are among you mayors, authentic leaders. What do you want, that all your decisions will be made in the exile? By people who did not come from the territories? By people who are incapable of deciding? That is our outlook.
Q: Do you know of U.S.-PLO contacts in Amman?
A: I have no knowledge of this. The Americans deny it, and I believe the denial.
Q: Is it possible that Hussein will enter negotiations without the PLO?
A: I can't tell you what Hussein will do, I can only offer my assessment. If Hussein were to decide to take the lead the negotiations, in my opinion we would gain very wide support among the residents of the territories. They are tired of all this runaround. They are tired of all the paths being blocked. I also think there is esteem for Hussein. After all, he has been revealed as a highly able leader, he is running Jordan very well, with much stability - though not without problems. And they are already used to the Jordanian customs. In my view, if Hussein were to decide to take the lead, many people - in the territories, too - would follow in his wake.
Q: Once the summations of the directors-general are approved by the cabinet, what is your assessment of the future of Israel-Egypt relations, and will you meet with President Mubarak?
A: I cannot predict what the future will be. I can tell you the future I aspire to. In fact, I would like to see a European-type Middle East: Each nation preserving its language, each nation preserving its identity; open borders, free contacts, a common economy. In my view, the Middle East could today be transformed into a blossoming garden. I think that the Arab world is also beginning to awaken to the fact that oil is not the answer to everything. There is a difference between oil and faith: The price of oil can increase or decline, faith does not decline. And I believe that this is the final goal: To create a European-type system of relations instead of a violent system of relations. I believe this will benefit all the residents of the region, I think we must remove wars and hatred from our lexicon. There is no choice but to move ahead step by step, but this is the central goal.
Q: And do you believe that a summit meeting will in fact take place?
A: It's not a matter of belief. For my part I am ready; President Mubarak will decide when it's convenient for him. I am not pressing him, I am not requesting anything of him. I say only that from my point of view I am ready to meet [with him] tomorrow, the next day. We must bear in mind that such a meeting is not the be-all and end-all, it is one more step. And when you work with someone you do not pressure him.
Q: How do you assess the Soviet move in releasing Anatoly Shcharansky, and does it betoken a new policy vis-a-vis the Jews and thaw in Soviet-Israeli relations?
A: Before I tell you how I assess the Soviet move, I will tell you how I assess the Jewish move. We do not forgo any person, his fate, we do not forgo our faith. Just look, one man came to Israel: How the heart of all the residents beat in unison, as though it were one heart. It is this which also gives us our uniqueness and our unity. From the Jewish point of view, I hope that our Arab neighbors will understand this. A people that suffered so much, that was so persecuted, is truly built for solidarity regarding the life of every person, even if it be just one person. We concede nothing.
As for the Soviets, it is too early to say. I do not think that the release of Shcharansky in itself is already a change of policy. But it doesn't mean that everything is blocked. to the contrary. A political situation must be examined and gauged according to the facts, not according to declarations. And the facts in the field are still far too limited for anyone to be able to draw far-reaching political conclusions from them.