This was the first time that an Israeli prime minister was interviewed by a Palestinian newspaper appearing in East Jerusalem. By June, progress was made in the secret talks conducted by Israeli and PLO officials in Oslo under Norwegian aegis and hospitality. Mr. Rabin's blueprint would be the basis for the 13 September 1993 Israel-PLO Declaration of Principles. He wanted to concentrate on the first phase which he felt would determine the future of Israeli-Palestinian relations. Mr. Rabin stated that annexation was not an option, and foresaw a linkage between Jordan and a Palestinian entity in the "majority of the parts of the territories. " The discussion also ranged on economic issues, the deportations, the closure of the areas and the idea of Gaza First. Text:
Q: Do you have any good news for Palestinians that we can publish in our newspaper?
A: I believe that the good news is that we are ready on the basis of the letters of invitation to the Madrid Conference to conduct. negotiations that will lead to reaching an agreement with the Palestinian delegation the way it was formed - I was not prime minister at the time - but the delegation was accepted by Palestinians. These negotiations aim to bring about the interim agreement, as it was called in the letter of invitation, ISGA-Interim Self-Governing Arrangements in the territories. We look at it as phase number one. As an interim agreement for no longer than five years and to start not later than the third year after its establishment negotiations for permanent solution based on 242 and 338 in accordance to the various interpretations. I believe that the first is the most important one because our intention is to bring about change in the life of Palestinians in the territories in the way that the basic perception is:
1. Almost all the functions that today are carried out by the Civil Administration of the new military government of Israeli vis-a-vis the Palestinians will be transferred to an executive council that will be elected by the Palestinians. We believe in elections but it is up to you - no one can force anybody to elect but this is our proposal.
2. We will remain responsible for the lives of Israelis in the territories and will remain responsible for the overall security. The Israeli forces will redeploy in accordance to their security needs and all the duties of the Civil Administration will be transferred to the hands of the executive council. We stress that it will not be a parliament but an executive, as an interim agreement. What will be in the permanent period, let us wait till the negotiations start. By changing the present situation which means that all the problems of health, education, agriculture, interior relating to the lives of Palestinians - justice, courts, prisons.
Q: What are the exceptions?
A: Look, whatever is related to the lives of the Palestinians, we see in addition not separation for the population from the areas that they are inhabiting. We speak about not territorial division but division of management of land.
Q: You said that most of the authorities of the Civil Administration will be turned over. What powers will be exempted?
A: I don't want to say. It looks to me that almost all.
Q: What are the exceptions?
A: I don't believe that at this stage it is important. It has to be reached in the negotiations. But this is the principle. Palestinians will run their affairs and we will be responsible for the Israelis. Not big numbers, I believe that we accept the principle that all private land owned by Palestinians will be managed by Palestinians. There might be here and there to prevent friction, certain limitations on the (land) use. If today there is a farm near a settlement, not to change it from farming to building to prevent friction. But otherwise this is the agreement that we are proposing.
Q: Mr. Rabin, do you have a vision as to what will happen to the areas in 15 years?
A: I believe that there are many options. It all depends on the first phase that will allow Palestinians to run their affairs, in the way it was not proposed before not by Jordan when it was in occupation of the West Bank, not by Egypt which was in occupation in the Gaza Strip. There is a basic difference in Israel and I will be frank with you, the Likud sets as its goal the whole land of Israel. I as a Jew, I believe in the right of the Jewish people over all the land of Israel, but I have to be realistic. I don't want to annex, not territory, but 1.8 million Palestinians who reside in the territories to reside in Israel. Therefore I am not a supporter of the whole land of Israel. At the same time I don't accept that in the context of a permanent solution we have to withdraw to the pre-Six-Day War lines. We would like to keep Jerusalem united under Israel sovereignty. There might be changes here and there to what used to be to meet some security aspects of Israel, but we will not want to add too many Palestinians to be part of Israel.
Q: So you don't see annexation as a possibility after the five-year interim period?
A: Total annexation by no means.
Q: So annexation is not an option?
A: It is not an option.
Q: So then what is your vision for the future?
A: I believe that if we will succeed in the first phase, confidence will be built, emotions on both sides, hatred and suspicion will be reduced, many options might be open. One, certain linkage between the majority of the parts of the territories would be linked with some sort of cooperation with Jordan. If there will be a possibility of having Israel, the Palestinians and Jordan in some setup. We have found, for example, as a result of the closure how much the economy of the Palestinians in the territories is dependent on work, business, commercial ties with Israel.
Q: This was the policy of all previous governments in Israel to make the Palestinian economy dependent on Israel.
A: Now I am ready.
Q: Now but not in the past.
A: I was ready when I was minister of defense. I went to speak to everybody, if tomorrow Saudi Arabia wants to invest billions of dollars for the Palestinians in the territories in cooperation with Palestinians abroad, I would more than welcome it.
Q: Since the closure why have you not helped make business relations easier with Jordan?
A: I can't decide for Jordan. I can do what I can, I spoke to the Americans and to the Europeans.
Q: What about what Israel can do, why for example we pay more taxes in the West Bank than in Israel?
A: It is not true.
Q: The tax rates are higher than in Israel and there is a case in the High Court on this.
A: Give me one example.
Q: For example if you make in the West Bank 800 shekels you have to pay taxes, in Israel you can make 1,200 shekels and not have to pay taxes. The cut-off point in the West Bank is lower.
A: We have to sustain the education and health systems.
Q: To have a higher tax system in the West Bank which has a lower economy than Israel is not fair.
A: Look, there are two options, that we are one entity then it would be against our international commitment to keep the future of the territories subject to negotiations. Therefore they are not part of Israel in the formal way. They are under military government. Once they are under military government the laws are different. It is not sharing the total resources of Israel and the Palestinians into one budget. Once it is divided, and I am not aware of any Arab people or any Arab country that supports that Israel will annex for this purpose the territories. Once it is divided then it has to be run by different rules. You have your economy, you are dependent on workers in Israel. Before the closure 120,000 Palestinians worked in Israel. I believe that their salaries represented one-third of the GNP of the Palestinians in the territories. I believe their salaries reached $700 million a year while your exports to Jordan and via Jordan was about $ 100 million.
Q: You can send a container to London cheaper than you send a truck to Amman because of the fees.
A: That is not true. We have reduced the fees since March. When we canceled the 230 shekels exit tax for Israelis, we reduced the same amount from the fees of the travelers to Jordan.
Q: But it is still very expensive.
A: It has to cover the expenses that an Israeli pays to a travel agent tax to sustain the ports here, or any tourist who comes here, what is normal all over the world if you come by ship or by air or you come by land.
Q: You said that the interim period will not be more than five years; there are Palestinians who doubt this. One American expert has said that the interim phase could last 20 years. What are the guarantees?
A: The guarantee is that we will sign a peace treaty. We don't want an Interim agreement for a long time. This is why we say that negotiations will start at least at the beginning of the third year. Which leaves three years for negotiations for a permanent solution. We hope that once there will be a change, once there will be also peace agreements with other Arab countries the whole issue can be facilitated from the point of view of the Israelis, and I just speak for Israelis, I don't speak in the name of others.
Q: Would you agree, like the Likud Government did, on binding arbitration if there is no solution at the end of the five-year interim period?
A: There is no binding arbitration agreed by anyone.
Q: What about Taba? It was resolved by means of binding arbitration?
A: Taba was a very small area, it was 600 square meters.
Q: But what about the principle of arbitration?
A: We don't accept arbitration as a principle because we believe that the responsibility to put an end to the conflict, to wars, violence and terror, it must be the responsibility of the parties.
Q: Good, but what if they fail to reach an agreement?
A: I don't believe in arbitration. I don't want imposition on you and I don't want imposition on us.
Q: Can you tell us what you mean by "Gaza First"?
A: I believe that once we will reach an agreement on the principle of what is the interim agreement, I am ready to start it on both sides. If we both agree, let us start first in Gaza but only as part of an agreement about the principle and structure for the interim agreement for both (areas) to the Gaza Strip and the West Bank. But first we have to reach agreement about the structure, and responsibilities of the interim arrangements. Who has to do what, what are the mechanism of finding solutions whenever there are differences but between us.
Q: In today's papers you are quoted an saying that the Palestinians are causing trouble reaching decisions. Don't you think that it is easier to resolve this problem by admitting what your Government and the Likud Government knows - that you are already negotiating with the PLO. So why not declare this and make things easier?
A: How can I put it in a nice way. I believe that since we deal at this stage with an interim agreement related more specifically with the Palestinians in the territories, we have to negotiate with a delegation which is composed of Palestinians. From our point of view, they can speak with whomever they want. As long as they are the negotiating team and with them we will have to reach an agreement and to carry it out. The negotiations are on two levels. The bilateral and the multilateral. On the multilateral, I said that when there is a committee that deals with the problem of refugees, and we will claim that there are two problems - the problem of the Palestinian refugees and the problem of the Jewish refugees from the Arab countries. There I said I prefer to see the representation of Palestinians who are not residing in what used to be British Mandatory Palestine and we accepted to this committee representatives of Palestinians that are not residents of the territories. Also in the economic committee. This is the change that this Government has brought about vis-a-vis the formula. As you remember the two committees were not in operation when the former Government of Israel was in power. These committees are now active because I said that I will stress that Palestinians in the refugees committee must be those who are considered refugees.
Q: What would you do if members of the Palestine National Council from the occupied territories are declared?
A: I believe that they are wise enough - those who are supposed to be members of the PNC - not to do so.
Q: But what if they did, if it was announced?
A- Since it is illegal we would have to take measures.
Q: So you will stop negotiating?
A: I didn't say I will stop negotiating. I said we would have to take measures. I didn't say what kind.
Q: You talked about elections. How can there be elections if there are no political parties allowed and if there is no radio and television?
A: First, if there will be a decision we would have to agree about the modalities of the elections. Whether they will be regional within territories, regional West Bank and Gaza - there are many options. We are waiting to start negotiations about that.
Q: So you can envision political parties becoming legal?
A: It depends on what kind. If they are regional then it will be individual. We have not yet started to discuss that. It is not because we don't. It is because the delegation was not authorized to do it. Then there will be a system of campaigning, then there will be a system of monitoring. I don't mind that members of the U.S. Congress will come and monitor the elections.
Q: But you are opposed to internationally supervised elections?
A: I distinguish between what happened in many countries. When former President Carter came with others to monitor elections, supervision meant conducting. No international supervision, no monitoring by outside.
Q: International monitored OK but internationally supervised no.
A: Yes.
Q: What about Palestinian radio and TV?
A: It will create a problem, but it is a matter for discussion. We first have to reach an understanding about the basic concept. How it will work. Once we reach agreement on that, then believe me issues like those you brought out can be solved easily.
Q: Would East Jerusalemites be able to elect and be elected for the council?
A: I prefer that this issue be brought out after we reach agreement on the concept. What is the interim. How it will work, who will run it. I am not excluding the possibility of participation in the elections.
Q: So they can elect and be elected?
A: I say participation as electing.
Q: You reversed the policy of the Likud Government regarding Mr. Husseini. What was your reason?
A: Allow me to remind you that when I brought out the first peace initiative it was directed to Palestinians, because I felt that the time then, might be today also, that we should first tackle the Palestinian-Israeli problem. I made it clear then to the Government and to the public that I wouldn't mind that one member of the delegation be a Palestinian that had residence in Jerusalem and in the territories. I didn't change my position, and once I was prime minister I saw no reason why I should oppose what I proposed three and a half years ago.
Q: So will other Jerusalemites be allowed in the delegation?
A: We agreed about one. I believe this is enough for now.
Q: There are 150,000 Palestinians living in Jerusalem. What is their future?
A: Every one of them can become an Israeli citizen automatically. Everyone who lives in Jerusalem can become a citizen. There might be very few who will not automatically be approved. This has been the position of all the governments of Israel. I believe that 7% have applied for citizenship but the rest have preferred to remain Jordanian citizens, that is up to them.
Q: Americans have said that the issue of Jerusalem can be discussed in the interim period. Things like population, health service, elections. So why are you opposed to talking about Jerusalem in the interim period talks?
A: I believe that first and foremost we had an agreement with the Americans, that Jerusalem, united Jerusalem, will not be included in the interim agreement under the executive council. This is part of Israel and therefore it will not be discussed as an issue during the interim period. Issues of elections, here and there other issues regarding the Palestinians who reside in united Jerusalem can be done, but it is not related to the basic problem that we face regarding the 750,000 Palestinians in Gaza and 800,000 who reside in the West Bank, This is the bulk of the problem.
Q: Mr. Freij, the mayor of Bethlehem, said that it is not fair for the settlers from the West Bank to travel to Jerusalem while the Palestinians cannot. He called this apartheid. What do you think?
A: We decide what is allowed for the citizens of Israel and what is allowed for those who are not citizens of Israel. The closure that we put, was to prevent freedom of movement of Palestinians from the territories and doesn't affect those Palestinians living in united Jerusalem.
Q: The closure affects some Jerusalemites, like me?
A: Where do you live?
Q: I live in Kafr Agab and I have to wait a long time at the checkpost.
A: I don't know exactly where the line is. It is not against international law and it is not against the Geneva Convention not to allow freedom of movement. We are allowing 45,000 workers to come to Israel. In addition there are doctors, students we just allowed 1,200 students from Gaza to come to take exams in Jerusalem. We allowed it. It is controlled movement. It is nothing against international law,
Q: Your internal security has improved, so why is the closure continuing?
A: What brought it about is the fact that today it is controlled. Permissions are given on the merit of the request. We intend, if we see that the security is consolidated and that there is a reduction in violence, we intend to increase the categories that will be allowed to come. For example women above a certain age, students, doctors, lawyers, but we have to check it week after week and see the implications.
Q: So are you saying that the closure will ease every week?
A: In certain categories it might be.
Q: Are the borders of the closure the borders of the interim rule?
A: They are not borders. We today distinguish between what is Israel sovereign soil and what is under military government. I believe that the whole world stressed that we keep this distinction because otherwise it would be considered an act of annexation.
Q: Hanan Ashrawi says that Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza are held hostage by the Israeli Government because you use them as a bargaining chip to put more pressure on the Palestinians.
A: Not at all. I can assure you that if tomorrow there will be no violence there will be no need for all the measures that are taken in coping with violence. Believe me it doesn't make me happy to keep a few thousand Palestinians in military installations or in prisons. I don't want to keep too many soldiers in the territories unless it is needed. I don't need to-use measures like closure of houses or blocking roads. I wish that there would be no need for it. But at the same time whenever there is violence or terror I have to do it. Once there will be no more, I promise you we will not do it. It costs money to us, we don't enjoy doing it, believe me, the opposite.
Q: You said on radio that gestures to Palestinians would be made only if they agreed to the talks, later you said that because they didn't sign a joint statement to go then we were going to do something but then you stopped. It looks like political blackmail.
A: I believe that the demand of the Palestinians every time they come to the negotiations that we make gestures it is a mistake. We were ready at the ninth round of the negotiations to have sub-committees. We suggested and the Palestinians agreed.
Q: Palestinians claim that you reneged on the promises made before the ninth round.
A: We made no promises to Palestinians. We promised the Americans.
Q: The press spoke about 5,000 family reunification cases to be approved, but there are still wives and husbands who are not allowed to live together.
A: There might be cases here and there.
Q: But don't you agree that it is inhuman to keep a wife and husband and children away from each other.
A: We agreed on the quota not the principle.
Q: So you don't believe that a husband and wife being together is a humanitarian.
A: We are not the only country that doesn't allow that.
Q: Can you name one country that doesn't allow families to be reunited?
A: There are a number of countries.
Q: Gaza Bar Association head Freih Abu Hedin says that Moshe Arens' period was better than your period. More Palestinians including children have been killed during your rule than before. He also says that Arens removed checkposts from congested camps but you brought them back?
A: Our struggle against terror has no limitations. We set up the checkposts because of the increase in violence.
Q: Why are your soldiers not using shields in their confrontations with Palestinian stone-throwers?
A: The instructions are not to shoot (I am not talking about plastic bullets) unless the soldiers' lives are in danger.
Q: So why not use shields, is it unmanly for the soldiers?
A: Some people ask why don't we use police like in the case of demonstrations of students. Let us speak frankly. We are not the same entity. You and we are different religiously, politically and even I would say nationally, Therefore it is not something like the demonstration of students in Paris or in London or in America. Here it is different, it is a confrontation between two different entities. What is applicable in the case of a demonstration in Tel Aviv it is not applicable to the confrontations between Israelis and Palestinians.
Q: That means it is a military occupation.
A: As you know it is under military rule.
Q: So why don't you accept the Geneva Convention?
A: We accept the spirit of the Geneva Convention,
Q: But not the letter of the convention?
A: Why not.
Q: Because deportations are not allowed, because you are not allowed to bring Palestinian prisoners to Israel and it is illegal to settle.
A: It is not correct. The first thing about deportations you are right. It is not part of the Geneva Convention. But allow me to remind you that capital punishment is allowed according to the Geneva Convention. We have tried to refrain from using it. There are outcries for the penalty. Although it is legal in Israel we have not used it.
Q: Some people say that your special units use the death penalty. This is said by human rights organizations.
A: I believe that everybody prefers temporary removal for two years than to be hanged.
Q: Your security forces have just arrested the groups you say are responsible for the killing of Toledano. What is the justification in keeping the deportees in South Lebanon?
A: Because Hamas is not finished. We have no illusions. Hamas is a movement which has a strict religious perception for the life of the individual in society and the country. They developed under the cover of religion and social activities terror groups not only here but also in Egypt, Algiers and Sudan. In this case they tried to use terror to achieve their goals. In our case they want to stop the peace negotiations. They want a continuous war between us.
Q: But you will agree to allow them back after a year?
A: What I was committed to I will keep.
Q: There is a political process going on between Israel and the Palestinians. There are many Palestinians who are administratively arrested for political reasons. So why not release the political detainees?
A: We have used these measures in accordance to our laws which permit them. We inherited them from the British. I was administratively detained by the British for six months.
Q: But I am not talking about the legal issue, I am talking about the political dimension, there was no peace negotiations between you and the British then.
A: There was no need, there was no war and no fighting. The administrative detention is not a political measure it is an administrative measure. It is carried out only for one purpose, to make sure that violence will not be instigated, organized, and carried out. No Palestinian was detained for expressing political views. You can go on the radio here and say "I am for a Palestinian state, the PLO is the sole representative for the Palestinian people."
Q: So why are they not tried?
A: Our law allows them to be detained for six months. There are committees that the detainee can appeal to and they can decide.
Q: When the Likud was in power you said from the Knesset that you thought deportations doesn't work.
A: What I said was that the way that the deportations was carried out during the last days of my serving as the minister of defense in the National Unity Government made it ineffective. What we did vis-a-vis the 415 was done in a different way. It was done immediately. It was done in a different method, they were not deported forever but temporary removal which is more effective and more helpful and didn't call for the legal procedure that takes months.
Q: So you expect that the long-term deportees, those deported forever will be allowed to come back?
A: It is allowed by the law. We will see.
Q: They will have to apply individually?
A: I don't know, I can't predict the future. It depends what will happen in the negotiations and in the territories.
Q: Thank you.
A: I believe that we live in a unique period in which there is an opportunity to start to solve the Palestinian-Israeli conflict. You can't expect that everything will be solved. What is on the agenda is a two-phase solution. I wish that both sides will find the common sense and the courage to make the compromises that are needed to start for the first time Palestinian-Israeli negotiations and agreement. In the past we didn't negotiate with the Palestinians. The first chance for the Palestinians to be a real partner for the solution of the Palestinian-Israeli conflict. I was born here in Jerusalem, I am the first prime minister of Israel that was born here. I lived all my life here except five years that I was ambassador to the U.S. I believe that basically we can come to a solution. But as we say, for war and troubles one side is enough but, peace needs two sides.
Q: But this means that we need to show sensitivity to each other's situation.
A: I am sure but the question is what are the major issues that are vital to each party. Therefore the gradual way to solve the conflict is the way that was proposed and accepted by the Palestinians in the letter of invitation to the Madrid talks.