The briefing ranged on such topics as negotiations with the Palestinian
Authority, Syria, Lebanon, economic aspects of peace, Egypt's position on
Israeli nuclear armaments and Israel-European relations. It was given to a
selected group of European journalists. Mr. Peres elaborated on what
Israel has done so far in the framework of confidence-building measures
with the Palestinians. He did not hide his exasperation with the slow pace
of the arrival of economic aid promised by the sponsoring nations, many of
them European. Excerpts:
NEGOTIATIONS WITH THE PLO
Question: (On negotiation of the interim agreement with the PLO)
Foreign Minister Peres: It is taking time, and it may also take more time,
basically because of violence and terror, and also because the economic
support didn't come as fully and promptly as we had hoped for. But that is
not the reason to think we gave it up or we think it's a failure. Not at
all.
Question: I understand that next week the four partners are starting to
negotiate the return of the displaced persons from 1967. I also heard on
the radio this morning that in a first meeting of the Israeli side, Israel
will be ready to allow the return of these people. Can you assess how many
people you are talking about, and what exactly is Israel's position?
Foreign Minister Peres: I think, according to the Camp David Agreement and
according to the Oslo agreement which followed it and copied the same
item, we had to build a committee made up of the four parties, namely
Jordan, Egypt, Israel and the Palestinians, to deal with the matter of the
displaced persons. The figures and the numbers are disputed,
controversial. I think, really, in order to handle this issue, we have to
have more precise material, because the differences are not 3% more or 3%
less, but three times as much or one-third of it, and I'm not going to
guess. I think that the first thing that we shall have to do is to find
out the correct facts, and then we shall be able to think about how to
handle the situation.
Question: I understand that you asked the Germans to help build dams on
the Yarmuk River. Can you confirm that there might be some problem with
Syria which owns the sources of the water, and that there might be
problems with the Palestinians in Jericho who obviously would want to
build some water pipelines?
Foreign Minister Peres: I don't think so. I don't think that we are going
to change in any way the division of water between Syria, Jordan and
ourselves. I do not see any connection to the Palestinians. I think they
are really trying to catch the surplus winter waters to save it for the
summer. If at all, it is an intervention in the seasons, not in the
countries.
Question: Is there anything more Israel could do to get the peace process
with the Palestinians moving? The Palestinians obviously don't believe in
the peace process any more - the closure, the settlements are being
built up, no release of prisoners. Is there anything else Israel could do
to restore the belief of the Palestinians in the peace process?
Foreign Minister Peres: We also have to restore the belief of the
Israelis, not only the Palestinians. We have released 5,000 prisoners.
Some of them returned to the old business of terror. The closure came in
the wake of several bombings, and we now have opened the closure a
little bit. We have to guarantee the security of our people. As to the
settlements, the complaints are totally unfounded. This government did not
permit the addition of a single new settlement. If there is building going
on in the existing settlements, it's true all over the West Bank, in the
Arab settlements too. You cannot stop life. If there are more children,
you build a kindergarten. People need services. If a couple is getting
married, they need a home. We cannot paralyze life.
Question: You said you are sure that the interim agreement with the
Palestinians will be implemented. Do you have any idea if it will be done
before the elections in 1996?
Foreign Minister Peres: It will be done before the elections. We would
like to see the Palestinian elections held a year before the Israeli
elections.
Our greatest hope is that the Palestinian society will go democratic. It's
not just a part of our negotiations, it's also part of our wish. Because,
all told, if you ask me what is the best guarantee against nuclear
proliferation, against weapons, against war, I will say 'democracy'.
History shows that two democracies have never gone to war. We don't make
it as a condition, but clearly, if the Palestinian society will go
democratic, it will be an important message to our own people. We wish
them, really, a full democratic society.
Question: How will the peace process get moving? Right now it seems stuck
in the mud. What can we do about the redeployment, about the elections?
Foreign Minister Peres: We are doing what we should. We are negotiating
quietly. The negotiations are going on all the time, they didn't stop.
When the time will come to make them public, we shall do it.
Question: Can you imagine the time when there will be no more Israelis in
Gaza and the West Bank, and the Palestinians will live on their land next
to Israel?
Foreign Minister Peres: Why should it be? The problem of the Israelis
being there is a problem of the relations between the Palestinians and the
Israelis. Under different relations, this doesn't pose a problem at all.
There are 1.3 million Palestinians on the West Bank; there are 130,000
Israelis - 10 percent. Why can't they live together? What's wrong? If we
shall not change the relations, we don't have a solution. We shall change
the relations, and we won't have a problem. There is a 17 percent Arab
minority in Israel - no problem whatsoever. There is a 10 percent Jewish
minority - why should it be a problem?
Question: Security being the overriding issue in this peace process, I've
been trying to understand how the Israeli government measures the security
or the sense of security of the Israeli people, and it seems to me that
there are different factors here. One would be the passage of time without
any major attacks, the other would be measures that have been taken by the
Palestinian Authority, and the last one would be measures that have not
been taken by the Palestinian Authority. Could you comment on that?
Foreign Minister Peres: The Palestinians have begun to understand that
without them taking measures, nothing will happen. The time was really
necessary for them to learn that they cannot go on without doing anything.
Now they have begun and we hope they will continue, and if they will
continue in a convincing and visible way, then we shall be satisfied. We
don't ask them for 100 percent success. What we are asking and calling for
is a full-fledged attempt to stop terror, to preempt it, to arrest the
terrorists. Lately they took some measures, including the establishment of
a security course. Had they done it earlier, they would have saved time.
They are still waiting for the end of the Ramadan to put the accused
people on trial. We have to judge by real events on the ground, to see if
the minimum which is necessary was done. We didn't do it suddenly. It was
after a chain of acts of terror which were extremely costly to us - in
human terms, in political terms.
Question: If this quiet situation in terrorism continues in Israel, do you
think that the famous redeployment could be realized before summer?
Foreign Minister Peres: We are negotiating about redeployment, we are
negotiating about elections, we are negotiating about the transfer of
authority, we are negotiating about security and economy. All this is
under negotiation. We said that in the middle of the negotiations we are
not going to publish anything about their nature or their progress. What I
can say is, the negotiations are going on, and I do hope that sooner or
later we shall come up with some solutions.
Question: Is May 1996 still a sacred date for starting final status
negotiations with the Palestinians?
Foreign Minister Peres: We are obliged by everything we have signed,
provided that the other party will also do everything they have signed. In
their signature, the Palestinian Authority took upon itself to fight
terror, to bring an end to the Palestine Covenant. We shall respect all
items of the DOP, in spirit and letter, but this is not an agreement with
ourselves. It's an agreement with another party, and we expect the other
party to do likewise. You cannot have a one-sided implementation. It must
be mutually implemented. And I do hope that the Palestinians will remain
faithful to their own obligations, and whatever we promised, signed, we
will fulfill.
Question: Does that mean that you will start negotiations on the final
status in May 1996, respecting, the date of Oslo, on condition that the
Palestinians fulfill all their obligations?
Foreign Minister Peres: No, you are not quoting the DOP. You are trying to
make an improved DOP. The DOP has some qualifications about the testing of
the implementation. Until now, we have fulfilled everything. There was a
postponement in time because there was a postponement in the
implementation of what the Palestinians have had to do. We said to the
Palestinians that our concern is mainly one, and that is security. And
everybody can understand why.
PEACE ECONOMY
Question: To what degree have the Europeans fulfilled their commitments to
the Palestinian Authority?
Foreign Minister Peres: The Europeans say they did. We estimate that
probably two-thirds of the promises were fulfilled, one-third remains.
Basically, we have a problem with all that's happening now in the world.
As you cannot make wars without ammunition, you cannot make peace without
foreign assistance. Because the leaders have to show their own people that
peace brings some material advantages to their own people. For example, we
were very worried at the fact that there was a promise to Jordan that they
will be forgiven 275 million dollars, and all of sudden it was cut to 50
million dollars. It paints a very alarming situation.
What I can say is that you can be very restrained in foreign aid right
now. But if as a result of this slowdown of the peace process,
fundamentalism will grow, then I think whoever is trying now to save money
will have to pay double and triple as much - because of the control of
fundamentalists of the oil sources, because of the spread of terror,
because of the instability that may occur. I think it is wiser to invest
right now small amounts of money - and, by the way, I'm not asking
anything for Israel, we are really talking about our neighbors who need
economic support to initiate an improvement in their own economies. So I
regret very much the reluctance in providing the necessary funds, like in
the case of water for Jordan. We have nothing to gain from an investment
that will not affect Israel. We, ourselves, gave the Jordanians 50 million
cubic meters of our own sources, which are not unlimited.
I think that peace requires a certain generosity. For many years, our
friends in Europe, our friends in the United States and elsewhere, said:
You must make peace with the Palestinians, you have to recognize the PLO,
you have to solve the problems. We did. Now I think that our friends have
also to do their part, have to participate to make the Palestinian new
reality a success. Israel is doing it - we have to give back land, we have
to give back authority. We have to do it while terror still prevails, and
every time we have to face a new demand and a new pressure. It's not
simple. It cannot be put only upon the shoulders of Israel. There is a
tendency all the time to accuse Israel. Today Israel is asking her
friends: How about you? The time has come that you will also contribute
seriously in the attempt to solve the situation.
Question: You stressed that peace needs to show material advantages and
that the donor countries should give more. But what is causing the deeper
economic depression on the West Bank and Gaza is banning most Palestinian
labor from entering Israel. How can you ask the donor countries to give
more when the economic reality there is being determined by the Israeli
closure?
Foreign Minister Peres: The Israelis didn't do it arbitrarily. We did it
because we have a real problem of security. We wish that the Palestinians
could control security at the places where they are responsible. What we
are really trying to do is: We came with a project of paving the
separating line between the Palestinians and ourselves with a line of
industrial parks, which will not have to bring the Arab laborers to Israel
but can bring the Israeli work to the Palestinians, where they are. We
want to build five parks along the dividing line between us and the West
Bank. We want to build three around Gaza, all on the Palestinians side.
The Palestinians agreed to it. We are really interested in economic
development. For us, too, it creates a great deal of problems and a great
deal of financial difficulties, because we have to maintain peace and
hence our alertness concerning our security. Peace didn't save Israel a
single penny. On the contrary. Because of terror and because of violence,
we have to increase our attention and alertness. We also have a real
problem. The problem is not only closure. The problem is the security of
our people.
We want to do the same along the Jordanian-Israeli frontier, in the Arava
- to convert the whole area from a desert into an industrial, agriculture,
tourist zone. The idea that I am advocating came to my mind when I saw the
bridges in Venice. On every bridge you have a build-up of business. So the
bridge is not just a bridge, it's also a concentration of business, of
small shops, etc. We want to convert the whole frontier.
Question: You talk about industrial parks. It takes two, three, four, or
five years to build something like that up. What should the people, for
example, in Gaza who have work in Israel do until then?
Foreign Minister Peres: It doesn't have to take four or more years. It can
take 6-12 months to build it, and when you build you also provide work,
because building is also working. There are plans which can be implemented
even quicker than that. For example, we have suggested to build in Gaza a
concentration of greenhouses for flowers and strawberries. We suggested to
build 5,000 dunams of it, and every dunam can provide work for three
families. This can immediately give 15,000 jobs. And 20,000 people from
Gaza are working anyway here - 10,000 with permission and 10,000 permanent
professionals, doctors, etc. So we are not blind to the needs.
Furthermore, we have asked the United States, and the United States has
agreed, that those industrial parks, while on the Palestinian side, will
have the same advantages as the Israeli economy has vis-a-vis the United
States, namely it will be considered as part of the free trade
agreement. Mr. Kantor, with whom I spoke and recommended to the President,
called up Mr. Breton in Brussels and suggested that the same rules which exist
between the Common Market and Israel will also relate to the industrial
parks, and the European Union agreed to it, too. So, those industrial
parks may have clear advantages.
Question: A few years ago you advocated the idea of a common market in the
Middle East. You just talked about problems with getting the economy to
work in the Arab world. I think an example is Egypt, where the government
is for peace but the people have not seen fruits of this. How do you see
the idea of a common market now?
Foreign Minister Peres: I do not believe there is a Middle East economy.
There may be Middle East poverty, but not a Middle East economy. The
economy today is global and the rules are universal. Namely, it's a market
economy with open borders, with free trade, a GATT agreement, competition,
modern infrastructure. If somebody refuses to join in, he is punishing
himself. I didn't invent a new Middle East. President Mubarak asked me if
we want to integrate ourselves in the Middle East. I told him, in my eyes
the problem is different: is the Middle East ready to integrate itself in
the 21st century? I do not see how anybody can escape the choice, unless
he wants to be out of it. This is an economy which is based more on
science than on land, more on technology than on natural resources, more
on knowledge than on customs. I don't see that anybody can escape it.
Sooner or later it will happen.
We can see many beginnings. First of all, I hope that the Middle East
Development Bank will be approved finally. This will be the first positive
institution in the Middle East, that will deal not with boycotts but with
mobilization of means. The aim of this bank is not to give loans to
countries, but to give loans to regional projects.
We are going to have the Amman Conference by the end of October. At that
conference, we have agreed already with the Jordanians on some projects
which are very imaginative and that fit the idea of a new Middle East. For
example, we have an airport that was north of Eilat; they have an airport
north of Aqaba. Since our airport, with the extension of Eilat, became
part of the city, we decided to build a new one north of Eilat. We asked
ourselves: Why should we have two airports separated by a distance of nine
miles? Let's approach the Jordanians and suggest that their airport will
become an international one and there will be an Israeli terminal there.
In principle, they have agreed. This is an indication of what I mean by a
new Middle East. It's logic.
The second example is, we want to create a free trade zone that will
comprise Taba, Aqaba and Eilat, connected with a ring road and a chain of
hotels. Here, again, the United States announced that if this will be
done, the three will be considered as part of the free trade agreement
between us and the United States, and the same will happen with the Common
Market.
Everything takes time. We have to fight convention and we have to fight
skepticism. We have to fight worries. Everything new that you do creates a
whole establishment of opposition, of resentment. When I read some of the
media I think there is an attempt to become undertakers of a modern age. I
don't know why. Who can run away from the new realities, and why should
they? We are very angry when somebody says that Israel wants to dominate
the economy of the Middle East. There is no economy in the Middle East;
there is poverty in the Middle East. Why does anyone think that we want to
dominate the poverty? We want to participate in improving the situation,
only as a participant, not as a leader. We told our Arab friends: If you
are afraid that we want to dominate your country, tell us. In five minutes
we will be out, no more.
As a matter of fact, the Arabs have boycotted the Israeli economy. As a
result, we built an economy which is not connected to the Middle East, and
we are doing fine. As a matter of fact, we have to 'thank' the Arab world
for their boycott. It forced us to build an economy totally based on
high-tech, an independent economy. What we are ready to do is to share
with other countries, as we do. We have an ongoing project with Egyptians,
the Americans and us on agriculture, which undoubtedly helped the
development of the Egyptian agriculture a great deal. Israel didn't make a
penny on it and doesn't have any intention. We share with whoever wants to
share with us, and we can share what we have. But our desire is sincerely
to become a participant, not a dominator. We are not giving up real estate
in order to win economic control. It doesn't make any sense.
SYRIA
Question: (On negotiations with Syria)
Foreign Minister Peres: The problem is clear. When you start negotiations,
there are certain assumptions. One is that each party has an opening
position, and you don't try to force the other party to give up the
opening position at the opening of the negotiations. That's what the
Syrians are trying to do. They say: 'First of all, accept our views and
announce loud and clear that Israel will give up everything, and then we
shall negotiate.' What are we going to negotiate? We don't tell the
Syrians to change their position. They cannot tell us to change our
position, particularly when we didn't exclude the possibility of a
withdrawal. But at the opening stage, what do they expect to happen? I
appreciate the fact that strategically Syria has divorced war, but they
didn't marry peace. They remain a strategic 'bachelor' for the time
being.
LEBANON
Question: What is the official explanation for the blockade of the
Lebanese ports?
Foreign Minister Peres: There is no blockade. From time to time there are
searches aboard ships that we think are either smuggling arms or
terrorists. There is nothing like a blockade. It's very sporadic and done
only when we have reasons to do so.
Question: It has nothing to do with the situation in the so-called
security zone?
Foreign Minister Peres: No. It has to do with the violence in the security
zone, if we have proper information. But we didn't put a blockade on the
Lebanese shores. The problem is that they smuggle arms in small boats into
the security zone, or elsewhere, at points that may endanger our
security.
Question: So the searching of the ships is not connected with the
condition of people in the security zone.
Foreign Minister Peres: No, this is purely and only connected with
security needs. It has nothing to do with anything else.
Question: (inaudible)
Foreign Minister Peres: Somebody will have to find out who took away the
independence from Lebanon, Israel or somebody else. You will probably
discover that we are not the occupier of Lebanon.
ISRAEL-EUROPE (EDUCATIONAL CONFERENCE)
Question: Can you tell us what you think the significance of the visit at
the end of next week of Mr. Major, the second British Prime Minister to
visit Israel, is, and what will you be discussing?
Foreign Minister Peres: We have quite a line of issues. First of all, the
relations between Great Britain and Israel are quite a rich agenda. In the
domain of economy and trade, we would clearly like to see more British
enterprises and initiative in the economic field in the Middle East, and
we shall encourage and call for it, not only in Israel but around Israel.
Secondly, Great Britain is a very important party in the European Union,
and we shall clearly discuss what should be, in our judgment the
contribution of the European Union to the Middle East.
We are also working on an educational conference. Israel has practically
computerized its educational system. We have today a computer for every 11
children from the age of 4 and up, and the results are very important. We
approached the European Union, and we have suggested that the European
Union will propose to all the countries in the Middle East to computerize
their own education. Over 60 percent of the people in the Middle East are
below the age of 18. It's a huge school. If unemployment may affect the
grown-ups, ignorance may affect the young people. It is the first time, to
the best of my knowledge, that diplomacy addresses itself to the young
generation and looks upon education as a promising means to pacify the
area.
This sort of a project will be discussed with Prime Minister Major. We
shall also go over the peace process, see what can be done, what the
British contribution can be. So we welcome very much this visit.
NON-PROLIFERATION TREATY
Question: Could you comment on Egypt and their newly awakened interest in
the NPT?
Foreign Minister Peres: Why now? Because now they are negotiating to renew
the Non-Proliferation Treaty. It should be renewed in April, and Egypt was
asked to sign, actually not to withdraw her signature because she has
already signed. There is an argument going on about what will be the
duration of the NPT - will it be limited in time, or unlimited - and today
President Clinton said that he sees in it a major issue and wants to have
it without any limitations, as far as the duration of the treaty is
concerned. We didn't ask the Egyptians to sign, it's not our job, and we
didn't make any conditions about our position.
The difference stems from an interesting layout. Whereas the issue of
signing the NPT resides between Egypt and the United States, the issue of
Israel not signing resides between Israel and Iran. We do not see a
connection between the two.
Israel is the only country in the world that another country is
threatening to destroy physically, militarily and otherwise. Not only are
they threatening, but they are trying to get a nuclear option and missiles
to do so. So we do not feel that we have to come the Iranians and say:
Gentlemen, since we have learned that you want to destroy us, don't be
worried, go ahead and do it.
We feel that the Iranian suspicion is our deterrent. We do not see it in
the connection of our relations with Egypt. Nobody is threatening Egypt.
When we signed the Camp David Agreement, the same situation existed.
Nothing has changed, neither in distances nor in knowledge. The Egyptians
want us to declare our readiness to have a nuclear-free Middle East once
we shall achieve peace. Our answer is yes. But clearly, for us, a peaceful
Middle East should include all the members of the Arab League and Iran,
and then we are seriously ready to negotiate a nuclear-free zone. But as
long as we are being threatened and as long as we only have peaceful
relations with Egypt, Jordan and we are beginning with the Palestinians,
and there is a beginning with Moroccans, Algerians and Tunisians, it's
very far from having a comprehensive peace. Israel is making peace and
Israel is paying for peace. We are giving back land, we are giving back
authority, the Arab boycott did not cease, terror didn't stop. I don't
know any example in history that any nation did something like it.
Question: Why are you maintaining the famous secret about the number of
nuclear bombs that Israel has?
Foreign Minister Peres: Our secret has nothing to do with mathematics. We
said that we are not going to introduce nuclear weapons into the Middle
East, and that is the end of the story. I don't know anybody who counted
bombs that do exist and may not exist. Amr Moussa told me: Look, why do
you object that I shall come and visit Dimona? I told him: It's very
dangerous. He said: Why? I said: What if you will come and you will
discover there is nothing there, and you will spread the story. What are
we going to do then?