In the following interview the foreign minister discussed the latest wave
of terrorist acts in Israel, the future of the territories and the state
of talks with Syria. Text:
Question: Some Israelis; even those on the left, seem to be turned off by
your vision of a new Middle East. They call it Peres' fantasy. Why do you
think you're losing them?
Answer: I'm not losing them. I'm used to it. If you go back, the first
time they called my vision a fantasy was when I said you need to have a
car for every worker in Israel. You know how many years they laughed at
me? Then I said that the Israeli economy should be based on science and
technology. They called that a fantasy too. I'm not looking for consensus.
Consensus basically is very reactionary. You have to go backwards to
mobilize most of the people. If you want to move ahead, you have to risk
alienating some.
Question: Are you beginning to feel you're running out of time, especially
given that Israelis will be going to the polls in a little more than a
year?
Answer: I'm concerned about what will happen in the election. But I'm more
concerned not to waste the intervening time. I'm trying to win peace, not
an election.
Question: Can Labor win the next election?
Answer: Yes.... Most of the political consultants say it is your image
that counts and I think it is your character that counts. If you show
leadership and determination you can win more (votes) than if you show the
white of your teeth and the wave of your hair. I think a leader should
behave like a bus driver not to turn his head around all the time to see
how the passengers are feeling because it makes them nervous. He has to
sit strong in the seat, hold fast to the wheel and watch the road
carefully. We have just been through some extremely difficult tests.
Question: You mean the two bus bombs (on July 24 and Aug. 21, that killed
12 people and injured 140)?
Answer: The two bus bombs. And the fact that we stood firm as we did
helped overcome the fear. Basically what's happening with terrorism is not
necessarily connected with the peace process. We've had terror before and
even if we stop the peace process we may have more in the future.
Secondly, it's not that the number of (terror) acts has increased but the
number of victims, unfortunately. The reason is because we're facing a
human bomb, a terrorist that commits suicide. And we haven't yet developed
the proper technique or strategy to combat this kind of terrorism -
although I'm sure we shall develop it.
Question: It seems like, whenever the peace talks get stuck, they call in
Peres and Arafat to break the logjam. What's the secret of the chemistry
between the two of you?
Answer: Arafat is convinced that I'm for peace, that I'm not coming to
collect victories but to overcome difficulties. If I made a promise or if
I said "impossible," I remained true to my word. I have developed a
certain respect for him too. (David) Ben-Gurion ( Israel's first prime
minister) used to say "Judge people on their records, not on rumors. Look
at how he did, not at how he looks." Despite some of his rhetoric, Arafat
has made good on his pledges.
Question: When Oslo B (the agreement on the second stage of the peace
process) is signed, it will likely leave a number of difficult issues
unresolved. What sort of solution do you envision, for example, to the
problem of the West Bank Jewish settlements? Answer: The settlements can
remain where they are (under Palestinian jurisdiction). The problem is the
poor relations that exist now between Arabs and Jews. We'll need some
confidence-building measures to reassure people that they can live
together. And then we'll need to improve the economic situation, produce
more water, more jobs.
Question: Is there some carrot you could hold out to the settlers?
Answer: Our negotiations have included carrots for the settlers: We didn't
dismantle a single settlement. We provided all the security for them. We
are building bypass roads (to connect the settlements with Israeli
territory without going through heavily populated Arab areas).
Question: Have you seen a map by Yossi Alpher (former director of the
Jaffee Center for Strategic Studies at Tel Aviv University) that puts 70
percent of the settlers in l1 percent of the Arab territory and basically
just moves the Green Line a little to the east?
Answer: I saw the map but I never saw the partners. You know it is easier
to negotiate with a map than with a partner. According to this plan, for
example, you have to move 30 percent of the settlers. You'd have to use a
great deal of force. I don't think they would agree to it. We'd also have
to convince the Palestinians right now, before we start to negotiate the
permanent solution to change the borders. Nobody can do that. You see, the
most difficult part in every negotiation is when you discover there is
another party that you have to negotiate with. As long as you negotiate
with yourself you are so brilliant.
Question: You have spoken of a new Middle East in which peace contributes
to the economic prosperity of all parties. How do you reassure the Arab
states who fear economic domination by Israel?
Question: There is no room for economic domination here. If (British Prime
Minister Benjamin) Disraeli offered (Queen) Victoria India and Pakistan
today, she'd turn it down. She'd want technology, not geography. I know
there's resentment but it's wrong to look at economics through political
eyes. The Arab countries should open up. Israel will participate in a
regional economy, but we have no intention of leading.
Question: The Syrians don't seem interested in the economic benefits of
peace and some observers have suggested Israel may have miscalculated
Syria's interests. How do you get Damascus on board?
Answer: Syria's thinking certainly looks peculiar. They way I see it,
they're 18 years late. They could have made peace with us when Egypt did
and I don't see what they gained by waiting. (President Hafez) Assad is -
how did Churchill put it? a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma.
He's very hard to analyze. There's no theory that fits the Syrian model.
We have to approach them by trial and error - and we'll keep trying. I
think perhaps the economic factor has not been played strong enough. Maybe
we should be negotiating on all the issues simultaneously, not just on
security. And perhaps we should be talking at the political level rather
than at the level of technical experts. Time is definitely running out. I
was more optimistic half a year ago. But eventually - I'm convinced of
this - nobody has any choice but to make peace.