Interviewer: Where do we stand now?
FM Livni: We are continuing to show determination in order to achieve all of our goals.
Interviewer: What is it that we want to achieve?
FM Livni: First of all, we need to change the equation in which they shoot and we react, just barely, ; that ended this week.
Interviewer: That's deterrence.
FM Livni: That's part of our deterrence – changing the equation. Part of it is striking their infrastructures; we have damaged part of them, and we have to continue damaging them. And then, afterwards, we have to create a reality in which they don't shoot at Israel, and the smuggling that is feeding what is happening in Gaza all the time…
Interviewer: What do you mean when you say that we will create a reality in which there is no firing on Israel? In effect, you are transferring the power to decide if the operation will end in victory or not, successfully or not, to the other side. Because, the minute they continue to fire a rocket here and a rocket there, what will you do?
FM Livni: Response, with force. They must understand that this situation – that they fire once and wait until it passes quietly – is over, it ended this week, and this new situation is what will continue to be.
Interviewer: In other words, Israel is entering into a war of attrition.
FM Livni: No. I hope that this operation will result in quiet for the long term. The minute they shoot, we will respond will great force. It might take a few operations, but we have a long struggle ahead of us; we have to do it with force and determination from time to time, as needed.
Interviewer: Minister Livni, I would like to stress this point because it's important, because in the meantime the shooting hasn't stopped.
FM Livni: Correct. That was to be expected, by the way.
Interviewer: And we are not succeeding by means of aerial bombing in neutralizing all of the Grad and Kassam launching sites pointed at the southern part of the country. But, even worse, we don't have a way to prevent the ongoing arms smuggling through the tunnels, and that is the decisive factor, because, after a three-month respite, they'll be even better-armed than before. The question is, do we have a way to control this situation? Assuming we don't take over the Gaza Strip.
FM Livni: That's right. First of all, shooting is a matter of ability and motivation. We are taking care of the ability to the extent that a military operation can do so. The motivation we are taking care of by restoring our deterrence and, if necessary, we will do so again and again. Your question about the smuggling is critical, because it turns out that during the entire period of calm, they were bringing in long-range arms from Iran.
Interviewer: The last hudna (temporary cease-fire) enabled them to reach Beersheba; they didn't have that range before.
FM Livni: True, very true. During the months since we entered into the calm, they increased the range, which is why one of the main things I'm dealing with right now is to find ways to stop the smuggling over the long term.
Interviewer: Are the Egyptians cooperating?
FM Livni: I'm acting on the international level; many understand, and I also tell everyone who asks 'What does Israel want to achieve?' I tell them, look, we are now doing certain things; there is the issue of stopping the shooting, but, as long as arms are being transferred, it will continue to be a powder keg that threatens all the moderates in the region, and it will have to be dealt with. There is understanding, which must be translated into something concrete and practical.
Interviewer: Let's talk about the timetable. In your estimation, as someone who is active in the diplomatic realm, when will the world say, 'hey guys, enough is enough?"
FM Livni: Yes, there will be pressure; it started from Day One. From the moment the bombing started on Saturday, the Arab group met at the UN and tried to pass a resolution (against it), but, following intensive work on our part, they were forced to be content with a press release. Most countries understand the desire for quiet. As long as we maintain that there is not only quiet but also smuggling, that there is a terrorist organization and a war on terror, a war of the entire free world, we can get some kind of support, but without a doubt there will be even greater pressures next week…
We are maintaining the humanitarian situation in Gaza…
Interviewer: Let's talk about, aside from the humanitarian situation, according to the statistics, at least 450 people have been killed, just now another ten were killed. The world is upset about the situation in Gaza.
FM Livni: The world can and must understand about the war on terror. There are other countries in the world fighting terror in different places and they all know that it takes time and they understand that we are on this front. I repeat, there will be pressure, there is already pressure. If we succeed in conveying that this is not just about quiet, but about something else, for example the smuggling, we will win more (time) to act. However, this is problematic because the Arab world, which is dealing with domestic troubles, needs to show that it is taking action. I would like to point out something else – during the week, the moderate Arab world has been confronting demonstrations at home and understands that Hamas is a problem for them just as it is for us. This is important to understand.
Interviewer: About the ground offensive – We've already had a week of bombings, and we know that the window of diplomatic opportunity is closing. Couldn't we just go in, say we got tough and exacted a price and then leave? What do you think you'll gain by a ground operation? What is your exit strategy?
FM Livni: I don't want to relate to specific actions, but, as I said earlier, some of the goals are related to deterrence and some to destruction of terrorist infrastructures; some things can be accomplished from the air and some can't.
Interviewer: And if, in order to achieve those goals, it is necessary to stay for a prolonged period in the Gaza Strip, are you in favor?
FM Livni: Of course I won't conduct that discussion here.
Interviewer: In principle, are you in favor of a prolonged stay in Gaza?
FM Livni: In principle, Israel has to do whatever is necessary to damage the terrorist infrastructures. It could be one operation that ends now and afterwards another operation and after that another one until it's over. That includes preventing smuggling in the future – whatever it takes to ensure a different reality for the residents of southern Israel.
I would like to go back to something you asked, about a prolonged stay. You have to understand that when we left the Gaza Strip in 2005, we said that if we were attacked, Israel could respond and act militarily, and that's what we are doing today. We have no intention of re-occupying Gaza; it's not in Israel's interest. We didn't leave in order to return, but we reserved the right to act.
Interviewer: Ms. Livni, when you said that a government headed by you would act to overthrow the Hamas regime, did you take into account that that might entail a prolonged stay in Gaza?
FM Livni: That is one of Israel's strategic goals.
Interviewer: In what countries did we succeed in overthrowing the regime and replacing it with another one?
FM Livni: I don't deal with replacing regimes within the Palestinian Authority. I cannot accept a small state within the Gaza Strip that is ruled by a terrorist organization and attacks Israel.
Interviewer: The question is, we all would like to bring down the Hamas regime so that it wouldn't fire missiles at Israel, but how do you do it? What price are you willing to pay to achieve that goal?
FM Livni: There are actions that can be taken to stop the missile-firing that stop short of overthrowing Hamas. In the long term, actions have to be taken that are partly military, partly economic, partly diplomatic. It's not a goal for one operation, but for the long term.
Interviewer: Minister Livni, since Israel does not negotiate with Hamas, but we do want to reach a ceasefire agreement, on our terms, who will give us the guarantees? Are you in favor of a multinational force in Gaza? Would you like to transfer authority to a third party? How do you see it happening? Or should we negotiate through a third party?
FM Livni: I oppose conducting negotiations with Hamas, since it came into power. For three years I have worked so that the world wouldn't give legitimacy to Hamas. It worked for three years, and I don't intend to ruin it now.
Interviewer: Do you think we're living under the trauma of the Second Lebanon War and the Winograd Commission?
FM Livni: Winograd was not a trauma; it improved the decision-making process in Israel. The procedures now are better, the discussions are deeper, the army is ready today. However, to go back to your question, in Lebanon there was a government, and you can get into a diplomatic discussion with a government. Today, we are in war on terrorism. At the end of the process, Hamas must understand that if it fires, the response will be difference; Hamas is the one who will want a period of quiet.
Interviewer: With whom will we reach agreements? Will we go in, do what we have to do, go out again and never talk with anyone, never reach an agreement or talk about the crossings?
FM Livni: There are things that are important for me to work out, not necessarily with Hamas.
Interviewer: Then with whom? With an international party?
FM Livni: When you talk about smuggling, Hamas is not the address, as far as I'm concerned. Because, seriously, if they sign, they won't continue smuggling afterwards?
Interviewer: So you want to talk with Egypt?
FM Livni: With Egypt, with the Americans, with other international parties who understand the problem and can offer a solution on the other side of the border. Because I'm not going into a room with Hamas; I don't want to give them legitimacy and, in any case, anything they sign is meaningless.
In my view, any arrangement that suits Israel's interests is a good arrangement. To legitimize Hamas is not in Israel's interest so what I do with the international community is to try to reach agreements on subjects that bother me without giving legitimacy to Hamas.
Interviewer: After the operation in Gaza, if Kassams continue to fall, even if only one or two a day, what do you intend to do?
FM Livni: Israel will act with strength and determination, as we are doing now; the equation has changed this week from Hamas's point of view as well as that of Israeli citizens.
Interviewer: Minister Livni, I would like to ask you if it makes you uncomfortable that so many Gaza civilians are paying the price in this war, civilians who weren't involved in terrorism, when Hamas leaders are deep underground and we don't succeed in reaching most of them.
FM Livni: Firstly, Israel is maintaining the humanitarian situation. Beyond that, there are civilian casualties, families hurt. I know the ethical values by which IDF soldiers operate. We try to avoid civilian casualties; I know that we call the houses before we drop a bomb. I know that sometimes we do things that expose IDF soldiers to more danger in order to avoid harming civilians. So, morally, I have no problem with it.
By the way, I have always said that when they shoot at us, we have to shoot back. And, it doesn't have to be directed at the source of shooting. In my opinion, any target of Hamas in the Gaza Strip is a legitimate target.
Naturally, people are interested in what is happening with the civilian population. When I'm asked about that, I tell them, look, the loss of a child is a terrible thing to any mother, Palestinian or Israel, but I want you to judge us for what we are and what they are. We are defending ourselves, acting against Hamas, and mistakes can happen. But Hamas targets women and children, schools and kindergartens.