February 15, 1998
BERNARD SHAW: Hello from Washington. I'm Bernard Shaw. To our domestic and international audience and to you, joining us on the Worldwide Web, welcome to a special presentation: A conversation with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu.
We invite you to participate in this unique online discussion with the prime minister via our CNN Web site. Both sound and picture from this program are available live at CNN.com.
Prime Minister Netanyahu joins us from Jerusalem at a critical time. With a United States-led military attack against Iraq appearing more likely by each day, the prospect of war places more pressure on a region already in conflict.
Here now is where things stand at the moment. A U.N. technical team arrived in Baghdad Sunday to survey eight presidential sites that Iraq has deemed off-limits to United Nations weapons inspectors. Iraq has agreed to a Russian and French proposal that would open the sites to inspectors under certain conditions. The United States has rejected this plan.
The U.S. is dispatching more fire power to the Persian Gulf. Six additional F-117 Stealth fighters left for Kuwait overnight. In defiance of a Palestinian Authority ban and an Israeli warning, about 200 Palestinians held a demonstration Sunday in support of President Saddam Hussein of Iraq. And Mr. Netanyahu met Sunday with his cabinet to discuss the crisis with Iraq. Israel is prepared to retaliate if attacked by Iraq.
As we begin our discussion with Prime Minister Netanyahu, again, this reminder: You can join us in an on-the-Worldwide site at CNN.com. And you can pose your questions to Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu as this program unfolds.
Mr. Prime Minister, welcome to this special hour.
PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU: Thank you. Good evening.
MR. SHAW: Good morning.
PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU: Or good afternoon.
MR. SHAW: Afternoon from Washington. First question: If Saddam Hussein fires one Scud missile into Israel, what would you do?
PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU: Well, in case we're attacked, we have our answers, and I don't think there's any point in going into them.
MR. SHAW: How would an attack led by the United States and Britain and some other countries, how would an attack on Iraq affect the Middle East peace process?
PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU: I think there is a big problem in that in the eastern part of the Middle East, in this case in Iraq, but also in Iran, there are dictatorial regimes that are arming themselves with ballistic missiles. And Saddam Hussein is the quintessential example of such a regime. We would like to see those missiles dismantled and those capabilities for non-conventional weapons dismantled without the use of force.
But we understand and appreciate the position of President Clinton and the United States that says that much greater instability, much greater damage to the cause of peace in the Middle East and beyond the Middle East would be perpetrated if we don't check the proliferation of those weapons in the hands of those regimes.
So I think you have to ask a different question: What happens if action is not taken now to restore the U.S. monitors? And there, I think the prognosis for peace is very grim indeed.
MR. SHAW: We have a question from Allon Mason, Mr. Prime Minister. "What kind of impact do you think the Iraq situation will have on the peace process?"
PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU: Well, I've just answered that, but I have to say that I wish that the impact would be the other way; that is, assuming we had progress with the Palestinians, which I want to achieve very much, and which we are working on as we speak, that this would in any way affect Saddam.
I think that is not the case. Saddam is arming himself to the teeth. He devoured Kuwait seven years ago without any relation to what is happening on the Palestinian-Israeli front. That's not his game. It's not his beef. If anything, he's opposed to any progress for peace and might be emboldened to attack if there is such progress.
But we want to pursue the peace with the Palestinians independent of Saddam. I don't think that if we make progress, as I hope we will, that will affect Saddam one way or the other. But the contrary is true. If Saddam has unimpeded access to the development of ballistic and non-conventional weapons, then he would affect and undermine any peace agreements that we have achieved with our neighbors and those we hope to achieve with our Palestinian, Syrian and Lebanese neighbors.
MR. SHAW: This question from Ben Pace: "How much land do you plan to give to the Palestinians? And how long afterwards do you think peace will last?
PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU: Well, that's the $64,000 question. And we're in the middle of a negotiation, and I assume that your audience knows that you don't reveal all your cards. But I can reveal some of them.
We are prepared right now, as part of an interim settlement, to cede part of the territory that does not affect our security. We have actually conducted an analysis and we've said that part of the defensive wall that protects Israel -- Israel is a tiny country; it's one-fifth of 1 percent of the combined land mass of the 21 Arab states.
Israel doesn't amount to 1 percent of the land of the Arab states. And within that 1 percent or one-fifth of 1 percent, we have a wall, a wall in the form of the Samarian and Judean mountains, that protects us against the possibility of ground invasion.
A million Palestinians live on that wall. I want them to be able to live in their areas and to run their own lives. But parts of that wall are essential for our survival. So this is the land we want to keep, and we're prepared to have the Palestinians have that part of the wall in which they live and which is not essential to our defense.
I'll bring to your attention the fact that probably 99 percent of your listeners or your viewers don't know, and that is that the Palestinians now control 98 percent of the Palestinian population in Judea and Samaria, or the West Bank. Ninety-eight percent of the Palestinians now live under Palestinian rule.
So the land that is remaining to talk about does not involve human rights. Human rights are where human beings live. It affects security. It affects contesting national claims, that is true. But it does not affect the Palestinians where they live. I would like to maintain that land that is important and vital for Israel's defenses, and I'm prepared to cede parts of that land that is not essential.
MR. SHAW: Continuing with our questions from viewers online, Rowena Cuanico asks, "What does peace mean to you?"
PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU: Everything. I grew up in a nation that went to five big wars and a lot of wars in between them, the war of terrorism. I, like every Israeli, have lost loved ones in these battles. And we know the enormous anguish of war better than any other people. I have small children at home and I want for them a future of peace.
I'm working to get a real peace, and a real peace means two things in my mind. One is that the Palestinians keep their side of the bargain as much as we are supposed to keep our side. And I'm prepared to proceed along that route; that is, we keep our side and they keep their side, including annulling the charter that calls for Israel's destruction that has yet to be amended by them.
And the other thing that it means for me is what I've just said. It means security. We live in a very difficult neighborhood. It's very different from Western Europe or North America. We're surrounded by dictatorships, or at least non-democracies. We cannot rely on the natural tendency of human beings in these regimes to prevent aggression from their leaders, because Saddam Hussein doesn't exactly take a poll right now in downtown Baghdad, and very few of the leaders around him do the same -- around us do the same.
So we have to make sure that we have the ability to repel aggression as part of the peace agreement. And therefore, I will never put Israel's security at risk. I will never put Israel's survival at risk. I am willing to take those steps and those risks that do not imperil the survival of this tiny Jewish state.
I'm prepared to do that, but I'm not prepared to jeopardize our security. These twin considerations, reciprocity -- that is, we both fulfill our commitments, and not just Israel -- and security are the foundations of how I intend to approach peace and how I intend to achieve peace within this coming term of office.
MR. SHAW: Welcome back to our conversation with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu. He's joining us from Jerusalem. The prime minister is also taking your questions via the Worldwide Web. And you can join in on the discussion by clicking on CNN.com.
From Shawnee, Oklahoma, Mr. Prime Minister, Jesse Lovette asks, "What are you willing to give up for peace?"
PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU: Well, I just said that we're prepared to trade that land that is not essential for our security with the Palestinians in exchange for their policing terrorists from the territory that we've given them. That was the essential deal of Oslo that Prime Minister Rabin, my predecessor, the late Yitzhak Rabin, struck with Yasser Arafat.
The deal was we give the Palestinians territory and they will give us the promise that they will fight the terrorists from that territory. Unfortunately, that basic deal has not been kept. We gave them territory, but they allowed these Palestinian areas to be turned into safe havens for Hamas and Islamic Jihad terrorists.
So if we're to have peace, we must avoid the kind of explosion of terrorism in Israel's cities that we saw since Oslo. And that means that the Palestinians have to get down to fighting terrorism, fighting it in deed and also fighting it in words. That means that they have to come out very strongly and very forcefully against these demonstrations that initially were organized by their own people calling for Saddam to bomb Tel Aviv, to destroy Israel. These kinds of things are against peace.
So we're prepared to give our share, but we want to see them control the terrorists from the territory that they receive and educate their people for peace. At the end of the day, that is the true test of leadership. I stood before my constituency that was against Oslo and I said, "We're going to do it and we're going to implement this agreement, providing they, of course, implement their part."
And that wasn't easy for me to do. It wasn't easy for me to get out of 80 percent of the city of Hebron, the oldest Jewish city, older than Jerusalem even. But we did that, too. What I expect the Palestinian leadership to do is to fight terrorism and stand in front of their people and say, "The war is over. No more war, no more bloodshed." That's the message that I give to my people. I would like to see Yasser Arafat and the Palestinian leadership drive that message home to their people.
MR. SHAW: Our next question is from Jeff Davis. "Can you foresee the day that Iraq, Syria and Jordan will be economic partners with Israel?"
PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU: Sure. It could happen. It could have happened a long time ago if they removed the impetus for war. We are, in fact, having right now economic relations with Jordan. Israeli industrialists have now established plants in Jordan. We have a free trade zone between Jordan and Israel. We're thinking -- we have open bridges between us. We have common agricultural and other projects. We now have a pilot run of the common airport in the Aqaba-Eilat area. That is, in the southern border between Israel and Jordan, we have now established a common international airport.
So the possibilities are endless. And I think that one of the benefits of peace could be the growth of the Arab economies and, coincidentally, of course, the Israeli economy, by this trade. It's my hope that other countries like Jordan see the benefits of peace and proceed to do away with the saber-rattling or missile-rattling.
Israel wants peace. It wants economic relations with the Arab countries. It wants economic relations with the Palestinians. And I'm very proud of the fact that I have doubled the income from Palestinian workers working in Israeli cities this year compared to what it was two years ago, before we came into office.
I'm a great, great economic liberal. I practice what I preach, not only inside my own country, liberalizing our economy, but in providing the freest possible economic relations with our Palestinian, Jordanian and, from my point of view, any other Arab neighbor that wants to make peace with us.
MR. SHAW: In Israel, Edwin Grodberg poses this question to you. "Will you keep national security a high priority?"
PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU: The highest. I think one has to understand that our quest for peace is not separate from our quest for security. It doesn't work, at least in our region, that you say, "Well, we can sacrifice security for the sake of peace treaties." Remember that just about every one of our neighbors had peace treaties with every one of their neighbors. Arab countries had peace with Arab countries. Iraq and Iran had a peace between them. It didn't prevent them from going to war against one another.
So what safeguards the peace in our area, which is populated by, as I said, non-democratic regimes that are not subject to the will of the electorate? What keeps the peace ultimately is the ability to deter war or to have strong security ramparts to keep the peace. And therefore, when people say to us, "You know, what's so important? Go ahead, give them the wall that protects Israel," which is all of the West Bank. "Just do away with it. You'll get a piece of paper, a peace treaty. That will protect you." That is not what happens in this area.
For that piece of paper to hold, you need strong security arrangements. That is our national security. That is what I will protect in order to ensure the peace as well.
MR. SHAW: Welcome back to our conversation with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu. He is answering your questions on the Worldwide Web at CNN.com. This question from Paul Coronado: "Do you see Israel as a secular, multicultural country or as a Jewish state?"
PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU: That is a question for the ages which asks you to define what is a Jew. Is a Jew just a secular national grouping, or does it have a religious identification to it as well? And the answer is it has both. The Jewish people are very unique. You know, we have our own history, our own national identification, our own religion.
But we have the only religion that says, "Next year in Jerusalem." It's tied to a particular place. You don't hear many Catholics say, "Next year in the Vatican." It's separate religiosity in most places. And national identification is kept usually separate in most groups. So I'm not going to divide Jewish identity at this point.
What I believe is this. I believe we have -- Israel is the national state of the Jewish people. It has free religious practice for all. In fact, it's probably the one place in the Middle East where you're guaranteed to have free worship for Muslims, Christians and Jews under law. And secondly, it is a place where we believe democracy should reign, should prevail.
Our Arab citizens and our Jewish citizens have equal rights. But it is not a secret that the majority of the citizens of Israel are Jews, just as the majority of the citizens of Britain are Englishmen. A majority -- I'll probably be doing injustice to the Scots and the Welsh, but what I'm saying is that just as the majority of the residents of Germany are Germans, a majority of the residents of France are Frenchmen, the majority of the residents of the Jewish state are Jews, and notwithstanding the democracy, of course, or not nullifying in any way the democracy that characterizes Israel as a special free state in a very large radius.
MR. SHAW: And before we lose our CNN domestic viewers, I want to get in this question from Kendall McCall (sp). "Are you going to allow Orthodox Jews the right to determine who is rightfully a Jew?"
PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU: No, we're not going to change in any way the status of Jews either in Israel or outside Israel. You know that if you have a Reform or a Conservative Jew in the United States -- they undergo Reform conversion or Conservative conversion -- we recognize that in the state of Israel. I will never allow that to change. For me, every Jew is legitimate. I will not allow illegitimate Jews.
We have a question of who performs conversions within Israel, and that has been done by the rabbinate for the last 50 years. I don't suppose that's about to change. But I must tell you that we have no question whatsoever and I will not allow any question to come in about the legitimacy of Reform or Conservative Jews anywhere in the world or Reform and Conservative conversions in the United States or elsewhere in the world.
MR. SHAW: Even if this might cost you politically, given the fragile coalition of your government?
PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU: I don't think anyone would seriously challenge that. We have an argument right now about whether somebody other than the rabbinate, which is Orthodox in Israel, should perform conversions in Israel. The number of such conversions is very small inside Israel. And on that, we're trying to reach some kind of an understanding, some kind of compromise. And I'm very proud of the fact that I've initiated this dialogue for the first time since the founding of Israel.
I hope we'll find a solution to this particular problem inside Israel. But I will never allow, even though I was challenged about this, I will never allow any question about the legitimacy of Jews as such worldwide -- Conservative, Orthodox, Reform. They're all the same to me. And the conversions they do in their respective communities is something that we respect and will continue to respect.
MR. SHAW: For our domestic audience, we come to the end of our conversation with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu. But for our international viewers and to those of you on-line, this conversation will continue. You can pose your questions to the prime minister of Israel at CNN.com. And to our domestic viewers, thank you very, very much for joining us.
From Washington, I'm Bernard Shaw.
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