Interview with Foreign Minister Shimon Peres on CNN
April 14, 2002
WOLF BLITZER: Mr. Minister, after you and your late colleague, the
then-prime minister of Israel, Yitzhak Rabin, signed that Oslo
Agreement on the South Lawn of the White House September of 1993,
you, Rabin and Yasser Arafat all won the Nobel Peace Prize. Do you
still believe that, when all is said and done, that Yasser Arafat is
a legitimate peace partner for Israel right now?
FM SHIMON PERES: He is legitimate in the sense that he was elected by
the Palestinian people, and we cannot replace the Palestinian people.
We cannot elect their leaders or fire them. But I think Arafat has to
take some decisions to become a leader. The most important one, I
would say, is to establish a single authority among the Palestinians
over arms, those who carry arms and use them. Otherwise, he will be
creating a chaotic situation.
BLITZER: So do you believe that the secretary of state of the United
States, Colin Powell, did the right thing today when he went to
Ramallah and sat down with Yasser Arafat for three hours?
FM PERES: I think that if he want to talk with the Palestinians,
Arafat remains the address for talking with them. I don't see anybody
else that the secretary could have approached in order to have a
meaningful dialogue.
BLITZER: Are you encouraged, Mr. Minister, that, following that
three-hour meeting, the secretary announced there would be continued
talks, lower-level talks between Israeli and Palestinian officials,
that possibly a second round of talks with Yasser Arafat on
Tuesday?
FM PERES: I think that, on the one hand, we have to settle some
complicated issues, like, for example, when will our army redeploy to
the previous positions before the present operations started.
Initially, we said it will take four weeks. Two weeks already have
passed. So it's another matter maybe of 10 days or two weeks unless
there will be some unexpected events. So, when the Palestinians are
saying they want us to go out, we never intended to remain there. And
it can be relatively in a short while.
On the other hand, we have to give birth to some new ideas. The old
ideas, the previous ideas are aged and overused. I think one of the
important ideas that came over the table is to have original
conference, with all the parties concerned coming together, and try
to lay out an agenda like it was done 10 years ago in Madrid.
BLITZER: Some Palestinians, Mr. Minister, say that's simply a
stalling tactic on the part of the Israeli government, that there's
no need for this kind of Madrid-like international conference at this
point. The immediate need, these Palestinians say, is for Israel
simply to withdraw from the territories.
FM PERES: Well, the Palestinians who say it must show that they
control the situation. As long as there are more bombs and more
terror and more violence -- you cannot use only your lips to
re-create a situation. You have to use your imagination and the
control of the events.
I would say point blank: If you can stop terror, there is no sense to
wait. But if you cannot stop terror, and unfortunately, that is the
present situation, we have to look for bridges to cross the very big
outrage that exists among the people on our side and on their
side.
BLITZER: Mr. Minister, correct me if I'm wrong, but I sense some
differences within your National Unity government. Some of your
colleagues, Likud members in particular, say they've written off
Yasser Arafat. They say he's a terrorist and should not be even
considered in negotiations. You've not written him off by any means,
have you?
FM PERES: We have differences. It's a coalition government. It's not
a secret. We have different parties, and clearly the party I
represent does not agree with the Likud Party. We don't make any
secrets about it.
Now, when it comes to Arafat, I'm really trying to see or think who
cand, in the eyes of the Palestinians, replace him. Maybe there are
other candidates to succeed him, but I don't think they will be
better or more promising. We cannot force the Palestinians to change
their leaders, but we have to press upon the Palestinians to change
their policies, namely to stop terror and enter into a meaningful
negotiation.
BLITZER: How concerned are you, Mr. Minister, about the tensions
along the border between Israel and Lebanon? As you know, the
secretary of state will be going to Beirut tomorrow, Monday, for
meetings with Lebanese officials, to try to urge calm along Israel's
border with Lebanon and indeed with Syria as well.
FM PERES: I'm very much concerned, because the Hizbullah are
spoilers, and the Lebanese don't really have control over them. And
let's not forget that in Damascus itself there are 10 headquarters of
different terroristic organizations. And yet Syria is a member of the
Security Council. It's absurd. The Syrians must decide if they belong
to the security of the world or the insecurity of the world of
terror. They cannot go on like it.
I think the visit of Secretary Powell to Syria is of great
importance. He has to tell them the naked truth. The Syrians are
interested in being respected and in appearing as a responsible
country. If they want to be respected and responsible, they have to
take measures to stop the deterioration in Lebanon.
Clearly, the Lebanese, too, must play a role in their own integrity
and their own independence. Today they're becoming more and more
submitted to the whims of the Hizbullah, which is a terrorist group
that takes orders from Iran. So I think to talk with the Lebanese is
important at this point.
Now the Lebanese government is asking for help. And may I say also,
in favor of the Lebanese government, they have developed the southern
part of Lebanon quite impressively. If troubles will begin there, the
first victims will be those farmers and businessmen that are
developing the southern part of Lebanon, and for us, the northern
part of Israel. Here, really, is a crazy group of people with a
religious clock, trying to put an end to any effort to make peace.
BLITZER: That sounds to me, Mr. Minister, and correct me if I'm
wrong, like you're threatening to retaliate against positions in
southern Lebanon, including presumably Syrian positions, if these
mortar attacks against Israeli troops within the so-called Shaba
Farms area, if they continue.
FM PERES: No, I am not threatening. On the contrary, I think Israel
has shown a great deal of restraint. But if they will continue firing
against us, what do you expect us to do? Hizbullah wants to provoke
Israel.
BLITZER: Will you hold Syria directly responsible?
FM PERES: We shall hold Syria directly responsible for trying
seriously to prevent this outburst of fire.
BLITZER: What about the situation in Bethlehem? Toady is Sunday. The
situation in Bethlehem remains as it's been, a standoff, a serious
standoff; some 200 Palestinian gunmen inside the Church of the
Nativity.
We've now heard from a spokesman for your government saying Israel
has come up with a proposal to let them to let them leave, those 200
gunmen, to get safe passage and leave this area forever, in effect,
although it is doubtful that Palestinians necessarily will support
that. Do you have any other way of trying to ease that situation?
FM PERES: No. They're armed people. They are people who should be
blamed for many acts of terror and violence. We have reported to the
Vatican. We told them that we want to respect the holiness of the
church. We don't want our forces in any way to penetrate the church,
the position of this church as it is being accepted by (inaudible).
And for that reason, we told the Vatican that we are ready to let the
people who are in the church to go abroad and bring an end to the
story.
For us it's quite a difficult situation, because among the people who
are there, there are real murderers. There are people that are to be
blamed for many acts of terror and violence. But because we want to
bring a peaceful end to this story -- and by the way, the Vatican
says that the Palestinians were the ones who violated the holiness of
the church -- we are proposing what we did propose.
BLITZER: Your government is also being severely criticized by the
Palestinians and elsewhere around the world for what's happened over
these past few days in the Palestinian refugee camp in Jenin, on the
West Bank, accusations of an Israeli massacre against Palestinians.
Are you now prepared to allow independent observers from the Red
Cross, from the U.N., journalists to go into that camp and see
first-hand what may have occurred?
FM PERES: It is our intention, once the fire will be stopped. But I
want to tell you about Jenin, there are rumors and there are facts.
What we are now dealing and facing is more rumors than facts.
I would like to mention two points. One, most of the buildings that
we have destroyed were trapped by mines, and they became, you know, a
living bomb. And also, many of the people, even the ones who
surrendered, were human mines. They carried explosives on their
body.
I must say, it was a bitter struggle, a bitter fight in Jenin. We
have lost 23 soldiers. It's not an easy proposition for any of us.
And I know the army was given orders not to hit any civilians, and to
the best of my knowledge, the army took it very seriously. The men
who went there were reserve soldiers, people with experience.
BLITZER: If you have, Mr. Minister, nothing to hide, why not simply
let those independent outside observers into Jenin?
FM PERES: There is still an exchange of fire in Jenin now, and they
could be caught by a cross-fire. But I think the army is thinking of
opening up Jenin for the visitors, and eventually it will be open. I
don't know if it will take a day or less than that or more than that,
but within a very short period of time, Jenin will be opened.
BLITZER: As you know, there's been a proposal now floated out there
of having some sort of international presence, international force,
perhaps including U.S. troops, separate Israelis and Palestinians on
the West Bank. Is this an idea that your government is ready to
accept?
FM PERES: No. We think that before you have observers, you have to
decide what are they going to observe. Namely, you have to have an
agreement. If you don't have an agreement, what will observers going
to do? What can they do? So the first step before we talk about
observers is really to decide where are the lines, who is in charge,
and then discuss the possibility of observers.
We have agreed, by the way, to have American observers, already a few
months ago, in Gaza in order to supervise a very complicated point in
the southern part of Gaza in Rafah. It didn't materialize for
different reasons.
But I believe that what is really needed is an agreement before any
observations.
END